A Charlie Hebdo cover.When Jyllands-Posten published the now famous Mohammed cartoons back in 2005, I must admit I felt a bit annoyed. The Danish newspaper is consistently right-wing, so it was very fond of Dubya and his War on Terror, and it had no history of provoking people (other than left-wingers) just for the sake of it. I therefore thought their real motives had less to do with protecting free speech and more to do with provoking Moslems. At the same time, I supported their freedom of speech 100%. In other words, my attitude at the time was very well expressed by the quote wrongly attributed to Voltaire: “I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.”
However, this time it’s different. Charlie Hebdo didn’t just criticise Islam — they were ruthless in their treatment of everything and everybody (see the cover illustrating this blog post), as a left-wing secular satirical magazine should. It would have been very strange for them not to criticise Islam using their best cartoonists from time to time. In other words, the terrorist massacre of Charlie Hebdo’s core staff is the clearest attack on free speech imaginable, and we all have to join the fight against those people who want to transform our societies into illiberal, totalitarian regimes, whatever their religion and nationality.
Even ‘regular’ Islam is very right wing compared with our liberal secular society. The teachings make the American religious right look wishy washy in terms of gender roles, gay rights, abortion etc. People in Europe who are anxious about the increasing influence of Islam in the West are not necessarily xenophobic bigots.
A religion is what its believers make it. During the Middle Ages, Moslem countries were in general much more liberal and enlightened than Christian ones. If somebody wants to be liberal and secularist while being Moslem, I don’t have an issue at all with them, while I do have an issue with people killing in the name of Christianity in for instance Northern Ireland. We should embrace those people who are trying to develop a variety of Islam compatible with European enlightenment values, rather than saying that all Moslems are the same.
I disagree Rob. Guess you aren’t familiar with how many doctors have been killed outside of abortion clinics in the USA. Or gay people by “god loving” Christians.
Then there’s that nutter Breivik in Norway (a Christian) who massacred 77 of his fellow Norwegians.
Islam is not the problem. There are extreme fanatics of every hue.
That’s a non sequitur, Rob. Yes, many (perhaps even most) Moslem countries are right-wing, illiberal and so on, but that does not mean that Moslems living in Europe can’t be fond of modern European values and find a way for them to be compatible with their religion. The biggest danger is people here excluding them, claiming that their religion makes them terrorists or similar.
I did not make that claim about all Muslims being violent but the replies assumed I did. Maybe you are right but it seems like there is a significant current towards perpetuating the repressive versions in Europe.
Thomas Widmann by saying that “If somebody wants to be liberal and secularist while being Moslem, I don’t have an issue at all with them” you are basically saying you want Muslims to reject Islam, which in essence is the pair of beliefs that there is only one God Allah and that Muhammed is His prophet. From those beliefs flow the acceptance of the Koran as the word of Allah, and from that flows an ideology that is all-embracing and exclusive of liberal democracy and what the West thinks of as women’s and gay rights. In effect, you are saying that you only accept Muslims if they assimilate and spurn the central tenets of their faith or ‘practice in private’. A “Secular Muslim” is a contradiction in terms — convenient though that would be. There may be millions of people from Muslim communities who hold their Islam lightly or nominally — these are not the problem. The problem is people who hold traditional (but not necessarily Jihadi) Islamic views and who want to foist these on the rest of European society because they believe that European society is decadent and needs Islam. Examples I can think of include refusing to process alcohol at supermarket checkouts or ‘policing’ gays and scantily-dressed young women in the East End of London.
There are also moves to implement Sharia law in the UK.
I have spent time in Malaysia with people who live and work there and they’ve talked about the power of the religious police in that country. I wouldn’t want that to eventuate in the UK.
But maybe I’m being pessimistic and you’re right to believe that Muslims in the West are going to drop their faith, assimilate, and become ‘Secular Muslims’.
Rob You’ve grasped the essence of Islam. The terrorists in Paris have ideological traces back to the Finsbury park mosque. That is where they were taught “true” Islam. The imams are the key factors in the disastrous lack of integration into the western societies. They exercise social control and prevent them from becoming westernized.
Melissa Murray I doubt that the number of dead abortion doctors in the U.s. in any way begins to approach the number of deaths by jihadists. A quick glance at Wikipedia searching for terrorist attacks show hundreds of attacks performed in the name of Allah (stopped counting at 150). One single bomb at an Afghani wedding or funeral or at a Baghdad marketplace may kill. The same number as the nut in Norway. And thir last word before detonating the device is always “Allahu akbar”. So saying that islam is not in any way the problem is wrong , in my opinion.
RT @arcofprosperity: New blog post: Je suis Charlie http://t.co/L3QmQovxYk #jesuisCharlie
RT @arcofprosperity: New blog post: Je suis Charlie http://t.co/L3QmQovxYk #jesuisCharlie
Well said Thomas Widmann. What a sad day.
Even ‘regular’ Islam is very right wing compared with our liberal secular society. The teachings make the American religious right look wishy washy in terms of gender roles, gay rights, abortion etc. People in Europe who are anxious about the increasing influence of Islam in the West are not necessarily xenophobic bigots.
By regular I mean non jihadi.
Je suis Charlie http://t.co/4PlYKFrAbX
A religion is what its believers make it. During the Middle Ages, Moslem countries were in general much more liberal and enlightened than Christian ones. If somebody wants to be liberal and secularist while being Moslem, I don’t have an issue at all with them, while I do have an issue with people killing in the name of Christianity in for instance Northern Ireland. We should embrace those people who are trying to develop a variety of Islam compatible with European enlightenment values, rather than saying that all Moslems are the same.
@roodvim Well, here’s the blog post I wrote: http://t.co/XueHfiJPe4 — note my choice of cartoon. @DaftLimmy
@arcofprosperity @DaftLimmy Great, now convince everyone else to get off the anti-Islam bandwagon and back on to the freedom of speech one.
I disagree Rob. Guess you aren’t familiar with how many doctors have been killed outside of abortion clinics in the USA. Or gay people by “god loving” Christians.
Then there’s that nutter Breivik in Norway (a Christian) who massacred 77 of his fellow Norwegians.
Islam is not the problem. There are extreme fanatics of every hue.
If you think that non jihadi Islam is not in fact a very far right wing ideology then you should spend some time in Malaysia.
That’s a non sequitur, Rob. Yes, many (perhaps even most) Moslem countries are right-wing, illiberal and so on, but that does not mean that Moslems living in Europe can’t be fond of modern European values and find a way for them to be compatible with their religion. The biggest danger is people here excluding them, claiming that their religion makes them terrorists or similar.
I’ve been to Malaysia (although only 2 weeks). Right wing ideology doesn’t equate to murder.
I did not make that claim about all Muslims being violent but the replies assumed I did. Maybe you are right but it seems like there is a significant current towards perpetuating the repressive versions in Europe.
Thomas Widmann by saying that “If somebody wants to be liberal and secularist while being Moslem, I don’t have an issue at all with them” you are basically saying you want Muslims to reject Islam, which in essence is the pair of beliefs that there is only one God Allah and that Muhammed is His prophet. From those beliefs flow the acceptance of the Koran as the word of Allah, and from that flows an ideology that is all-embracing and exclusive of liberal democracy and what the West thinks of as women’s and gay rights. In effect, you are saying that you only accept Muslims if they assimilate and spurn the central tenets of their faith or ‘practice in private’. A “Secular Muslim” is a contradiction in terms — convenient though that would be. There may be millions of people from Muslim communities who hold their Islam lightly or nominally — these are not the problem. The problem is people who hold traditional (but not necessarily Jihadi) Islamic views and who want to foist these on the rest of European society because they believe that European society is decadent and needs Islam. Examples I can think of include refusing to process alcohol at supermarket checkouts or ‘policing’ gays and scantily-dressed young women in the East End of London.
There are also moves to implement Sharia law in the UK.
I have spent time in Malaysia with people who live and work there and they’ve talked about the power of the religious police in that country. I wouldn’t want that to eventuate in the UK.
But maybe I’m being pessimistic and you’re right to believe that Muslims in the West are going to drop their faith, assimilate, and become ‘Secular Muslims’.
Jeremy Matthew Butterfield I’d love to hear your views on this.
Rob You’ve grasped the essence of Islam. The terrorists in Paris have ideological traces back to the Finsbury park mosque. That is where they were taught “true” Islam. The imams are the key factors in the disastrous lack of integration into the western societies. They exercise social control and prevent them from becoming westernized.
Melissa Murray I doubt that the number of dead abortion doctors in the U.s. in any way begins to approach the number of deaths by jihadists. A quick glance at Wikipedia searching for terrorist attacks show hundreds of attacks performed in the name of Allah (stopped counting at 150). One single bomb at an Afghani wedding or funeral or at a Baghdad marketplace may kill. The same number as the nut in Norway. And thir last word before detonating the device is always “Allahu akbar”. So saying that islam is not in any way the problem is wrong , in my opinion.